Deans Marine
General Discussion => Customers Builds => Topic started by: Tommydean on 02 September 2009, 06:28:48
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Hi all.. have been lurking for some time. I have started my HMS Javalin. here is a pic of my
engineering spaces so far instead of the wood I used fibreglass for the bulkheads (in red)
in .0625MM thickness and used west system slow cure epoxy for glue.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Looks nice and neat. Are the bulkheads bonded in yet? If so I suspect you may have problems ahead. I can't spot any holes in the hull for the prop shafts. Might have been advisable to have fitted the prop shafts first before the bulkheads especially as the aft bulkhead will need to have holes in it for prop shafts. Just a thought.
Robin
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Hi Robin.. I gave some thought to which to do first and after seeing a friend install the prop shafts first he noticed the hull had to be drawn into shape and when he did that it cracked the clue joints and put the shafts in a bind. (this was a hull of another manufacure). the red fibreglass i bought from McMaster Carr here in the states and it easy to cut and work with as I put more of the components in place I will cut holes were needed.
Here is another view
Tom
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here is some of the parts I been working on for the HMS Javalin. I was working on the rudder this last week on the left of the photo is the scale size..dont think it would be very effective in turning the ship so I modified the one of the drawings and the center one is the one i will use (simiscale?) and the one on the right is the kit rudder. The kit rudder and the simiscale rudder have about the same surface area. the material i am using is polycarbonate. all is left to do is drill the hole for the rudder post and file it to shape
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Hi Tom
I know you have already made your rudder but.... HMS Kelly has an identical hull to HMS Javelin. The models both suffer from the unfortunate reality that in general single rudders mounted between two props do not work very well on models. Even though the full sized ship may have excellent turning characteritics in my experience this is not translated to the model. In models turning forces are due mainly to the propellor wash striking the rudder surface where as in full sized ships I suspect the dynamics are different. Only solution is to have a non-scale rudder. I fitted a rudder to Kelly about twice the area of the kit as I wanted reasonable manoeuvrability. If you are happy with a 6 metre turning circle then the standard rudder is OK. On the other hand you can wait and see how it performs when finished - changing the rudder size at that time should be starightforward (provided you can get at via the small rudder hatch!)
Robin
Robin
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Hi Robin thats interesting...I had thought that the size of the kit rudder had been determinded by the "engineering dept" at Deans Marine as being big enough to make reasonable turns. Its no big deal to make a bigger rudder right now.
anyway here is a pic of my prop shaft housings i made.
Tom
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Nice workmanship Tom. Could you explain a bit more about the design of these prop shaft tubes. I assume you have discarded the kit items? As to the size of rudder as specified by the Deans Marine design department: I assume they have taken the actual ship drawings and scaled it down, after all the kit could be built as a static model where model dynamics would not matter but proportional accuracy would be important.
Robin
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Hi Robin I have been using the drawings out of the book "The Kelly's" for the detail above
and below the waterline. the kit rudder and the one in the drawings in the book didn't look the same so I made one from the drawings and added some Length so the rudder could be more effective and from your experience it sounds like needs to be even bigger. the prop shaft housings I made from 5/16" heavy wall brass tube. the end that is exposed outside the hull I made it taped like the one in the drawings in the book out a piece of solid round stock and then inserted a 1/2" piece of brass tube as a bearing for the shaft. the other end I turned a piece a of brass rod and at one end i drilled it out to 5/16" the other end i milled it to fit a stainless ball bearing that you can see in the photo. I will post a better photo of the prop shaft housing soon. I used 5/32" stainless steel ground shaft for my prop shaft and am using G.Sitek three blade naval style props in 1.25" dia
more to come
Tom
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here is a mock up of my work on the stern area so far, I still have to make the inboard struts. the prop shaft housings as you can see are tapered as per the drawings from "The Kellys". the gray plastic blocks are spacers for when i mount the props the correct distance
from the buttom of the hull. they are glued with rubber cement so they can be removed
easily
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Its looking like a really serious engineering project. I see you have only a single support strut for the propellor shaft. I used the kit shaft and the "A" frames - have you decided to not have A frames? Were they used on the actual ship?
When I was building HMS Kelly I also used "The Kellys". One of the features I was not sure of was the depth charge launching rails on the stern. The Kelly kit drawing shows 2 rails side by side whereas the drawings in the book show just a single rail mounted centrally. I decided to go with the book but was never able to find a photo to support my decision. Incindentally the white metal kit depth charge rails need to be binned and scratch built as they are too large.
Robin
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I am making the inboard struts right now. the drawing in "The Kelly's" shows a side view
that hides the inboard strut. I replaced the depth charge racks with photo etch ones from
John Haynes. will post more pics soon
Tom
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That's a very good adaptation of the kit.
It makes it more realistic.
Kurt
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Hey gents here is a couple more pics of my progress. the struts for the shaft support is in place. sorry it took so long for more pics, I had some camara issue's and couldent post
enjoy Tom
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Hey guys sorry I have been taking care of the duties at home but here is a couple of pics
of the project. so far i have mounted the prop shaft and housings for glueing into place.
I am using west systems epoxy and added some rosathix to thicken up the epoxy.
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here is another side of the bulkhead before epoxying
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your Javelin is looking very solid. any particular reason for choosing HMS javelin?
Robin
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Yes the hull is very solid and I have still been able to keep the weight down as well. next i am designing the drive system and it will be a twin belt drive. when I bought the kit I dident know much about UK DD's. I did know there was some famous captians and they were very good at sub hunting "HMS Starling"? I was thinking about the HMS Kelly but i desided on the Javalin because it survived the war (loosing the bow and stern and still making it home)
later a friend of mine that is in our model club here in Denver told me he had seen the Javalin
in malta when he was on the HMS Orwell i think? or the HMS Zeypher one of the two. Deans Marine also had a reputation here in the states as well. i like the molded detail in the hull
right out of the box!
here is a pic of everything glued into place and notice the ball bearings in the end of the
prop shaft housings
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Well i have been doing some detail work, i have been waiting on parts for my drive system.
I started with the galley. instead of the cast metal vents/screens i made my own. i made the jig out of aluminum and used K&S photo etch screen and strip plastic. this was my first try at this and it turned out good.
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here is another view of the galley in the top view i put ducting inside the galley for the small computer fan i am going to mount to the buttom of the galley seen in the backround. i need some air to move through the hull to keep it cool in the summer
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Here is the work to date on the forward deckhouse and bridge. i used John Haynes 12" port holes for the deck house and for the bridge i used Tom's Model Works 16" port holes. after i glued them in place i put the windows in made from thin polycarb I punched out.
the skipper is giving his approval on the work so far!
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well done...
For the cooling part, I tend to close everything (make sure that it's more or less waterthight) and then circulate the trapped air inside...
Sometimes we do like sailing in "rough weather"
http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=79.msg170#msg170
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I am suprised you need to push air through the model, I have built many models and never found the need to pump cooling air into them?
The detail work is looking very good.
Mark
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Mark i wish i dident have to, but the color of the deck is a darker color? i think ..not sure...
out here in Denver the sun is intence in the summer and the temp can get above 100degrees
some times. i might have to move the fan back aft for a better draft. i will be using the stack as the vent so the galley is a little to close to the stack. the reason i chose the galley for the vent was it is behind the fwd supper structure and my thinking was the galley wouldent take the brunt of a wave if i was sailing the north atlantic so to speak. i have other ideas for this as well. here is a pic of the windows i made
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I agree with Mark Tommydean about the need to cool the interior of the hull. I am not sure what motors you are using but I find the Deans Marine motors recommended are very efficient and provide enough power economically when fitted to the destroyer hulls and do not run hot so perhaps you are being a bit over pessimistic? I do like your ventillation panels - much improvement on the kit heavy white metal fittings. Presumably you intend mounting the same vents under the central pom-pom platform as well (for visual effect not hull cooling purposes). Your superstructure construction also looks very good.
Robin
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Hey Robin I am using 8000 series motors from pittman here in the states and are popular motors for ships. i will have a 2 to 1 belt reduction to the prop shafts so the heat from the motors wont be an issue. what i am conserned about is the direct sunlight onto the styrene
main deck, two summers ago one of the guys in our club had some of the parts warp due to
direct sun light. I am also thinking about tracing the main deck on to either thin polycarb or
the thin red fibre glass sheet i used for the bulkheads in previous pictures. will post a pic of my motor section soon.
Tom
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Hi Tom
I understand. I posted a thread here some time ago about an Australian modeller of a Deans Marine warship who had a deck split with the heat of the Oz sun. His solution was to use a plywood deck. I suppose you could paint the model white or very light gray but I guess that would not be appropriate for the deck.
Robin
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Yes I saw that thread that was very good ^^^ things like that to keep in mind when building
our prized models.
Tom
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Hi Tommy,
Oh nice! I'm re-starting my HMS Kelly so your thread will come in handy. Did you find that when installing the frames and bulwarks, that they required a lot of sanding to fit properly? In addition, the instructions and pictures supplied with the kit didn't match what was printed on the plywood.
I'm having to do a lot of sanding and fitting before gluing. I wonder whether your experience or Robin's was like that.
I've found that if I cut out the deck and use that as a template that helps immensely for fitting.
Thanks!
Oliver
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Hi Tom,
One additional question. I noticed that you had additional bulkheads. I'm hoping that I'm not missing anything from the kit.
I've attached a photo.
Thanks!
Oliver
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Oliver Yes on all three. for the bulkheads i had modified and were not part of the instructions,
I also used fibreglass sheet in 1/16" for all bulkheads and deck supports i bought from McMaster Carr. it is cheap and is very nice to shape and sand just ware a mask an go out side to sand when you do the sanding or the Mrs. wont like it much >:D .remember shaping the bulkheads to fit is a given when working with polyester resin layup hulls. when the resin cures it generates a little heat and it slightly warps the hull in places and there in is were the fun is you can easly "massash" into shape by placing bulkheads in various places in the hull.
if you would like a quick way to make templates get some plumers solder, the thick stuff and mark your spot in the hull were the bulkhead is to go then form the solder to the inside of the hull then pull out your shaped solder gently and trace around the outside of the solder and presto! bulkhead to a shape that is close for sanding.
Tom
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Tom,
Great advice with the plumbers solder. I'll definitely give that a try. I had been using aluminum foil and unless I use the really thick stuff, it's very difficult to get the right shape.
Take care and thanks for sharing the build!
Oliver
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Hi Tom,
I'm admiring your the prop shaft work and wondered how you determined the position of the shaft supports. I'm using the kit supplied A frames and I don't have the "dimples" in the hull to mark where the A frame supports would go.
So, I'm using the plans supplied with the kit and even with that, I'm eyeballing it's location.
Robin, on your HMS Kelly, how did you determine the position of the shaft support?
I'm a little hesitant to drill anything at the moment!
Thanks!
Oliver
Hey gents here is a couple more pics of my progress. the struts for the shaft support is in place. sorry it took so long for more pics, I had some camara issue's and couldent post
enjoy Tom
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Hi Oliver,
Prop shaft A frames position. I can't recall a problem with mine. I have just dug out the kit build instructions and they do refer to "drill out A frame markings in the hull" so presumably yours are omitted?
If it helps I have just measured my actual hull - A-frame centres (sorry centers) are 60mm from the extreme end of the stern. My prop shaft ends are 6mm from the A-frame centres. The fixing is important because if you get it wrong the props are in danger of fouling the rudder on helm limits. :(
If you have doubts fit the rudder first and the prop shaft holes in the hull and you should be able to arrive at a satisfactory position for the A-frames before bonding in the shafts. Hope this helps. Remember the small holes for the A-frames can always be filled if wrong - the crucial thing is to be sure of everything before bonding in the prop shafts as that is difficult to undo! By the way I did what DM suggested and replaced the A-frame pins with brass wire for added strength.
Another thought - probably posted somewhere before - I more or less doubled the size of the rudder as with the original rudder teh model has a VERY BIG turning circle >:D
Robin
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Hi Robin,
Thanks for the quick reply.
Yes, I don't have the A frame markings. I did eyeball it to 67mm prior to reading your reply. Let me get it to 60mm as you've recommended. Yes, I too am using brass wire for the A frame pins. On one of the A frames, the white metal post was missing to begin with.
Thanks so much for your help and advice!
Oliver
Hi Oliver,
Prop shaft A frames position. I can't recall a problem with mine. I have just dug out the kit build instructions and they do refer to "drill out A frame markings in the hull" so presumably yours are omitted?
If it helps I have just measured my actual hull - A-frame centres (sorry centers) are 60mm from the extreme end of the stern. My prop shaft ends are 6mm from the A-frame centres. The fixing is important because if you get it wrong the props are in danger of fouling the rudder on helm limits. :(
If you have doubts fit the rudder first and the prop shaft holes in the hull and you should be able to arrive at a satisfactory position for the A-frames before bonding in the shafts. Hope this helps. Remember the small holes for the A-frames can always be filled if wrong - the crucial thing is to be sure of everything before bonding in the prop shafts as that is difficult to undo! By the way I did what DM suggested and replaced the A-frame pins with brass wire for added strength.
Another thought - probably posted somewhere before - I more or less doubled the size of the rudder as with the original rudder teh model has a VERY BIG turning circle >:D
Robin
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sorry Oliver i have been away for a coulpe days. the distance from the prop blade tip to the bottom of the hull i used from the Deans kit drawings ( the stern view looking FWD). then i made my template out of styrene and drew everything onto my template. after i was satisfied with my measurements i traced everything onto my hull. take your time and it will come out right ^^^ IF you cut into the hull and the cut is in the wrong place DONT PANIC the cut can EASILY be fixed with some polyester resin :) hope the pic shows a good view of what i did. you can see the index spots for the kit shaft support struts in the photo and how i modified the placement for my own shaft supports struts. i also
found a center line on the hull and used that as a "baseline" to measure from.
Tom
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also i have installed my rudder servo and linkage.
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Hi Tom,
The picture was very helpful. What's the distance between the center of your props? Because I didn't realize that the stern view of the prop and A frame was found in the instructions and not on the plans ( this will teach me to read the instructions! ), mine turned out to be 48mm from prop center to center. The instructions suggest 40mm. Oops!
Thanks!
Oliver
sorry Oliver i have been away for a coulpe days. the distance from the prop blade tip to the bottom of the hull i used from the Deans kit drawings ( the stern view looking FWD). then i made my template out of styrene and drew everything onto my template. after i was satisfied with my measurements i traced everything onto my hull. take your time and it will come out right ^^^ IF you cut into the hull and the cut is in the wrong place DONT PANIC the cut can EASILY be fixed with some polyester resin :) hope the pic shows a good view of what i did. you can see the index spots for the kit shaft support struts in the photo and how i modified the placement for my own shaft supports struts. i also
found a center line on the hull and used that as a "baseline" to measure from.
Tom
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40mm sounds about right. but notice i modified the prop shaft supports and placement of them somewhat to fit a more prototypical look. so i had to move things around so to speak. the prop shaft housings penetrate the hull right were the markings were molded in the hull
so there was no problem with that. also i have used the book "The Kellys" by Christopher
Langtree almost constantly for reference. post some pics on your build thread we would like to see your progress :)
Tom
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here is the latest work on the engineering spaces. i built the motor housing out of polycarbonate then measured some stand-off's i bought at an electronics store and samwitched the motors into a kinda of "power unit" i can remove if i have to. i got the idea
from looking at modern armored vehicles like the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Wonderful idea. You're model is very well thought out. I lack the tools and the modeling skills to pull off anything like this. Look forward to more of your builds and your ideas.
Have fun!
Oliver
here is the latest work on the engineering spaces. i built the motor housing out of polycarbonate then measured some stand-off's i bought at an electronics store and samwitched the motors into a kinda of "power unit" i can remove if i have to. i got the idea
from looking at modern armored vehicles like the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2.
Tom
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Thanks Oliver....I think i will have to redesign it though. that was intended for a 2:1 belt reduction
and the motors are only 8000 rpm motors. some of the other guys did the same reduction with the same props and said the ships speed was to low so i will do direct drive and see how it works.
Tom
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Hi Tom
I went direct drive on my Javelin using two Deans Kestrel motors.
Looks great on the water and runs about scale speed if not a little more.
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Im trying direct drive first with these motors. i am runnin these on 12volt i guess i can lower the voltage if i have to high RPM's though. thanks Dick
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Hey guys finally did some work on some detail. was able to make the main guns look a bit more scale
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Im trying direct drive first with these motors. i am runnin these on 12volt i guess i can lower the voltage if i have to high RPM's though. thanks Dick
I am running mine on 7.2V
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/HMS%20Javelin/DSCF0314.jpg)
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Hey Tom
Just a thought, I bought some of John Haynes 4" twin turrets for my cossack and they are amazingly more detailed than the deans offering and require only the tiniest amount of flash removal from the castings.
Well worth the dosh and lack of hassle! ^^^ ^^^
The online shop is closed until sunday the 25th june but the website is www.johnrhaynes.com/shop/ (http://www.johnrhaynes.com/shop/)
Ben
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anything from John is top shelf! ^^^ I saw those turetts but i dont know if they weigh more than the vacu formed ones in the kit. i would buy them in a second
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for the photos. The turrets look nice.
I haven't started on my turrets.
What changes did you make?
Thanks!
Oliver
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Hey Oliver, I put some polyester glazing pudy on to square up the corners and fill in the low spots then i will scribe the panel lines. next i will put a gloss clear coat and put some rivet lines i bought from archer fine transfers. there is a good pic of the twin 4.7 mounts on page 35 of the Kellys. lots of rivets!
also did some work up forward in the anchor windless area.
Tom
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Tommy,
Thanks for the information! I'll check out the rivets.
Looking great!
Oliver
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archer transfers are cool but they are expensive :o
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Tommy,
Thats nice work you have put in to your model, so far I am really impressed.
I am going to take my time on my Kelly build and get it all right, I like the idea of the fibre glass bulk heads.
Dave
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Thanks Dave. yha taking your time is the name of the game with these kits. if yha mess up a part you can just build another one from the extra plastic sheet supplied in the kit. dont be afraid to modify some of the parts some dont fit exactly
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exactly Tommy..... never rush it... as mistakes can quickly appear, and i think i modify a fair few of the bits, just to make my model stand out from the crowd..
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finnaley got some work done...installed the motors and test ran the whole unit all the way out to the props
it ran smooth!
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Hey all its been along time but i am retiring from my present job
And am going back down to the basement to get some work done.
I have also found some new materials that look promising for main deck
And superstructure. Be back soon tom