Deans Marine
General Discussion => Customers Builds => Topic started by: Ironclad on 02 August 2012, 01:14:49
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Hello all!
I am completely new to this kind of thing and I am guessing one of the younger RC modelers too at 35? I am an old hand at plastic kits but my enjoyment only lasts until they are assembled and painted and then they just sit around until I get rid of them in one way or another and so I was looking for a somewhat more challenging project and decided that a RC Boat was the way to go!
Having looked at all of the kits on sale I decided to go for one of the cheaper kits and so bought the 1/24 scale ASR 128 motor launch as I quite like the PT shape and the deck assembly looked fairly simple.
So....I got my kit through yesterday and I must say that having looked through the kit and read the instructions I was fairly impressed overall. I did have a bit of a frown when I saw the mould quality of some of the white metal parts but then I suppose that's what this kind of modelling is all about ... trimming and shaping aplenty!
So.... off to the workbench now and I will crack on with the hull cleaning and drilling and I will post some pics on here as I go...watch this space I guess.
Ash
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All of us wish you well and enjoy your new area in the hobby world. The one think I would recommend is take your time and do lots of trial fits and before you bond anythink be happy with it before you start. Enjoy you build and welcome to the forum. ^^^
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I'll join Paul on his comments... ^^^
and don't hesitate to shout help if you need any
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Hi Ash
don't worry about the missmoulded parts, if any are unusable just e-mail Deans, I had 5 missmoulded resin torpedo tubes on my Solebay I e-mailed Deans attaching a photo of them one morning and had 5 good replacements the next day, could not wish for better service. enjoy your build.
Joe
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Okay .... so. Got the hull sorted and have got the internal beams in place. Didn't like the whole rudder set up and decided to get some uprated ones. They are a bit larger but will turn this boat on a dime! I also fabbed a platform at the rear of the hull to hold the upper part of the rudder tubes. I also epoxied the propshafts into the P brackets and the rudder tubes into the hull whilst I was at it! I have attached some pics of the journey so far. Next step will be the deck and superstructure cut out so will post when I have more!
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Following on from the last post....I have used p38 to set the prop tubes into place on the inside of the hull. As there is only a little requirement for filler on the outside would it be OK to use milliput instead as I think you get a much better level of control and finish with milliput rather than Body Filler....have a look at the picture and suggestions would be welcome. Also whilst getting the prop tubes out I noticed a slight bend in the aerial mast. On closer inspection I am really unimpressed with the tensile strength of this white metal part and so am going to scratch build a new mast based around some 2mm brass tube...does anyone have some other pictures of alternative versions of this mast that I could use when rebuilding?
any help / advice gratefully received!
Ash
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I assume that your talking about filling in the minor blemishes between shafts and shaft openings where you have sealed them in place with epoxy and the P38? If so then it doesnt really matter IMHO - there wont be much gap /pinholes to actually fill and unless someone is going to turn the hull upside down to inspect no-body is going to see. P38 is more solid and durable but Milliput or even Greenstuff etc bearing in mind you are also painting it will all be appropriate.
As for the mast, I would stick with the original plan mast but if you want a variation the mast build on my MA/SB which has a build link on here may be of use.
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Thanks for that Mike.... I had looked at your MASB previously before doing the deck beams... I can see how this would be considered boring but I approached it with a view that it was an important structural part and so tried to make the joins seamless and even used a bit of left over milliput to seal some small gaps and reinforce the forward joints! As for the stern shafts and shaft openings I know it seems like a small issue but I am aiming for as much perfection as I can (probably due to my history of air-fix kits) and it simply offends my sensibilities to not make this bit smooth and seamless...lol
As for the mast... I like what you have done there.... I think when it comes to it I will use some styrene tube outer for the thick part and a brass tube inner to run the receiver aerial up and then cut and glue the mast lights from the original.
I also noticed that you are using the kit provided rudders and props ... my first reaction was that they were a bit too rough and ready and I also have concerns over the props being so soft. Have you used these before and if so what are your thoughts? As you will see I have already uprated the rudders and am considering a nice pair of scale brass props instead. Sorry to go on but I am on a seriously steep learning curve here and don't want to go wrong if possible!
Thanks in advance for any replies from anyone
regards
Ash
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The rudders are more than adequate to give good directional control. However the props are a different matter. Cast White Metal props are never as smooth and clean as brass and even plastic/nylon ones. We all know there has been a whole science since the introduction of screw propulsion about the effect of propeller wash etc etc. and this still translates to models. I went with the white metal ones thinking that they would do the job - I have never been disappointed with them on Destroyers and other builds. However now she is built I am not happy with them at all and will be changing them. They do impact on the speed which is a little disappointing. Technically I would guess that she runs at scale speed and does look right when at top speed but she just doesnt go quite as fast as she should do. I am not looking for her to be a fast electric woosh speed but just to have a little more speed in reserve. Cant quite decide whether to change for two Raboesch Brass 3 blade props or to go for two nylon non handed props. But I will be changing them.
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Hi all!
Well....all I can say is that this stuff is addictive. I have been a busy little bunny these last few days and have made some good progress. I am now needing to wait for delivery of the radio control gear as I need to get this into the hull before I seal it down really. Having said that I have cracked on with the upper superstructure instead. I really wasn't happy with using the white metal foremast. It is fine for a static model but not for a boat that is destined to be transported about and run so I "tweaked" it with some brass rod and cutting the whitemetal parts to fit it (see pics). I have also built the mainmast too and decided that the only way to go was with 2mm brass tube which I hope to run the receiver aerial up. I then soldered the other bits to it using some styrene sheet for the upper support and the provided bamboo skewer for the wood strengthening. I also noticed a mast mount in an old photo and so have tried to recreate this using more sheet styrene. A bit of sanding and final shaping and I reckon the jobs a good un!
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Cant quite decide whether to change for two Raboesch Brass 3 blade props or to go for two nylon non handed props. But I will be changing them.
Waaaaay ahead of you there.... I have used the whitemetal ones for the moment as they are fine for setting the distance and some motor trials but I really like the look of the three bladed raboesch and am going to get a pair when all is done. One question though....do you need to have a right and left turn propellor set up or chan you have two right or left turners?
ash
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Hi, there is an article in the Forum under hint & tips, electrics, steering twin engined boats. This may give you some information to help you decide what you may want to do. Hope this helps. I am building a destroyer and will have my propellers turning inwards to force the water on to the rudder. Paul
Note from Colin: http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=394.0 (http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=394.0) just to make it easyer to find the said Hint & Tip..
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I really wasn't happy with using the white metal foremast. It is fine for a static model but not for a boat that is destined to be transported about and run so I "tweaked" it with some brass rod
that is the pleasure of Model building, no one says that you have to use the parts supplied.... i do a lot of modding "tweaking" of my models, to make them unique...
but i still prefer to buy a kit, as i don't have the time (working person) to scratch build a complete model..
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As they say Ash, you pays your money you takes your choice, but in my opinion contrarotating props do give a more balanced propulsion and better steerage, I guess that's why they do it on the real ship.
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Thanks for the info guys and thanks for that thread Paul. If I do have contrarotating props do I simply wire one motor in reverse to the other? I have just noticed that the props supplied with the kit will actually be contrarotation anyway so I think I will go down this road!
In the meantime though I have just spent ?50 getting a nice six channel transmitter (thought I may as well as then all options are open in future) and I have fabricated a depth charge rack for the stern as I want this to be more of a sub hunter than just a plain old ASR. I based it loosely on an old pic of one and built it around some to-scale depth charges to get the size right.
I also did one of the gun turrets and am quite happy with the result...these come with canopies but I dont really like them and so will leave the turrets open.
Well... thats it for now .... will put an update on as soon as I do a bit more!
Ash
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Oh... incidentally I have made the rear of the rack functional so I can link it to a servo later if I want to actually dump some charges over the side!
A
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Some nice work there Ash, and yes just reverse the wires on one motor, I think you are right to go for contrarotating props, I always fit mine with the top of the props turning into the hull, IMO this gives better steerage
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As Joe says some very nice work there.
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OK folks.... now this may be a stupid question but ...
I have a Futaba ripmax 50th limited edition 6x channel TX and on the back it has a small sticker that states that it is for model aircraft ONLY!
So .... does this mean that I cant use it to control my ASR launch? Advice would be appreciated!
Ash
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Oh... and while I am on here asking what are probably novice questions.....All the running gear I see for sale typically has two servers, receiver, and battery box. How do you hook this up to the boats motors .....I assume you need what is referred to as a ESC? Is this controlled by a servo or is it plugged directly into the receiver?
ash
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Hi Ash. Your radio is probably 35MHz range which is dedicated to aircraft, you need 40MHz or 27MHz range which is for land based models or better still 2.4ghz that can be used for any model . the esc is a self contained unit that plugs directly into the receiver and usually powers the receiver from the main batteries, so you don't need a receiver battery, then you just need one servo for the rudder, Joe
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Hi Ash,
a good place to look for more information on wiring up your Electrics would be Action R/C Electronics Wiring Diagrams (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/wd.php) in this list you will see lots of different ways to wire your boat...
this would be a simple way to wire up a 2Channel...
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/Slipway%20Sentinel.pdf (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/Slipway%20Sentinel.pdf)
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Hmm... thanks for the link but I have to say I am more confused than before! lol
I have twin 540 motors pulling approx 30 Amps at the 7.2 V I was planning on using. Can I not just wire them through a single 35-40 Amp ESC and all is well .... or am I way off base here?
The link you sent shows a p92 power distribution board.... should I have one? At present I have the motors a servo and the receiver in the boat with a space for the nimh battery pack (see pics) and as far as I knew I just needed the ESC??
Argh....my brain hurts! lol
It is probably just because it is my first time with this but any advice would be gratefully received.... meanwhile here are a few more pics! I was (again) not happy with the white metal UHF loop aerial and so have recreated this. Otherwise I have hot glued the motor mounts in and secured the motors and made a custom servo placement which allows for it to be slipped out by removing the two screws in the retaining plate (the white bit over the top of the servo) so it should be easy to replace should it be required.
Enjoy!
Ash
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and some more
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I have twin 540 motors pulling approx 30 Amps at the 7.2 V I was planning on using. Can I not just wire them through a single 35-40 Amp ESC and all is well .... or am I way off base here?
The link you sent shows a p92 power distribution board.... should I have one? At present I have the motors a servo and the receiver in the boat with a space for the nimh battery pack (see pics) and as far as I knew I just needed the ESC??
Argh....my brain hurts! lol
Ash
Hi Ash,
if your running 2 motors that pull 30 Amps... is that total or each??
if the total is 30Amps pulled, is that with or without load..??
if each motor pulls 30 amps then you will need a minimum of 60 Amp ESC....
an easy way to look at this... what is the maximum drain under load of each motor, add these figures together, plus 10-20% for safe margin...
there is no real need for the power distribution board, if your running ESC that have BEC.
the speed controllers (ESC) supply power (BEC) to the receiver... if you have 2 speed controllers, the Red cable from one of the ESC's must be disconnected..
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From your pics your servo is some distance away from the tiller arm. I always prefer to mount my servo as reasonably close to the tiller arm as possible if space and access allow. This is just a personal preference of mine but for me the further away the more tension in the connecting rod which I dont really like - but as I said just my preference.
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@ Colin.... yes... the motors will be 30 Amps under load combined so I was aiming for a 40 amp ESC. I am only going to have one speed controller as I have uprated the rudders to significantly over-scale ones that should really turn this beastie fast anyway. Do all ESC's come with a BEC (what does that stand for?) and if not can you recommend one?
@ Mikerace. I know what you mean about the servo but there isn't easy access towards the stern and the motors get in the way amidships so to compensate for the distance of travel I will be using guide brackets cemented to the hulls side to prevent any flexing of the rod. Hopefully this will work out as good as having the servo close up.
Thanks once again for the help lads and I will post some more pics when I get more done!
Ash
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Not all come with BEC. If they dont have a BEC you will need a seperate battery pack to power the rx. A BEC is a battery elimation circuit that removes the need for stand alone RX power. Its hard to recommend a good ESC as everybody has their own favourites such as Action, Electonise M Tronics etc. Generally as a rule of thumb the more AMP the ESC can take the higher up the price range you go. You should also leave a little excess over the AMP for safety. Deans have some 40amp ones on their site shop or you might try howes of oxford for a Tornado. I have never had one as I have never had a need to go over 30amp for an ESC - I have heard good reports about someone who has had one of these but cant personally recommend it from my own experience.
http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/RadioControl/viewProduct.php?ProdID=5695 (http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/RadioControl/viewProduct.php?ProdID=5695)
?29 for a 50amp is very reasonable if it turns out to be good.
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i don't think i really need to answer my question you asked me, as mike has already done a dam good job of answering it already. ^^^
as mike also said, and this applies to me also; its been a long time since i have had the need for high ampage speed controllers, so i can not really recommend a suitable one for you, most good hobby shops will have something to suit your needs...
most of my motors now a days don't draw much above 5 amps, but have heaps of power...
most (probably 99%) of the modern Speed controllers supply the receiver and Servos with power (BEC)
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Ok... thanks guys....but this now gives me another problem! I have a separate battery box for the receiver.... does that mean that I need to stop the ESC from supplying power to the receiver? if I understand this right ... if I run the receiver from the ESC via the main power pack then I risk losing all control when the battery runs out whereas if I run the RX via its own power pack then I will still have some control?
And I thought the big problems would be building the boat!!! Man this boat building thing is complicated..lol
Thanks for your help though chaps
Ash
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theres no Problems... just different ways to do things.. ::DD
if you run the receiver from the separate battery box, then you must disconnect the red receiver cable from the ESC if it supplies BEC...
either way, if the main Power pack is empty, then there is no power to the motors... so it does not really matter if the receiver is still getting power from its separate battery, the boat/ship would still be dead in the water, only difference the servo would still work...
speed controllers (ESC) with a battery elimination circuit (BEC) are in a way much better, it mean you don't need the separate battery box for the receiver, the voltage and amps used by the receiver and servo are really minimal, you would not really notice the difference, mainly it means you have a little more room for a bigger better main power supply, it also means that you only have one power supply that could go wrong...
once the voltage and ampage starts getting low, the boat/ship would slow down (it does not stop abruptly), which would mean that you still have a few minuets to retrieve your boat/ship to the lake side.
with two power supplies there is more places to look if there is problems with the electrics...
i have attached a photo, of a possible layout, the servo is closer to the tiller arms... much better for controll, the ESC and Receiver, placed either on the side walls or under the Deck, to keep them out of water that might enter the Hull..!!
and two batteries for the main power supply, connected in parallel, so as to increase the ampage, for longer running time.
connected in parallel.... = both plus wires are connected together, and both minus wires are connected together, then these wires go to the ESC..
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Ash, you can only have one control system +5volt source connected in your system. If you do not want to take advantage of BEC available from an ESC then you will have to snip the red wire at the ESC connector. If your ESC does not have BEC then do not snip the wire. I have used both alternatives... BEC and separate receiver battery and both have advantages. Being a bit lazy I now favour using BEC as it makes the installation easier and reduces the chore of an extra battery to charge prior to each trip to the lake. Have to ensure your main power battery is always in a good charged state of course at all times ???
Robin
As an annecdote I use a separate rx battery for my HMS Kelly. On one sailing outing when I was using only a 700mAh rx battery (sinec upgraded to 2600mAh) the rx battery voltage became too low for my RX/ESCs requirements and one drive chain shut down but fortunately the other held up long enough to reach shore on one prop.
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Ahhh... I think I am seeing daylight here! I think I am just going to go with an ESC with a BEC as it seems the simpler of the two methods. I had to laugh though colin....for a second there I was thinking "hey, this guy is building and ASR too!"...then I realised it was my picture cunningly adjusted...lmao.
Well.... whilst I have been umming and ahing over the running gear I have fabbed a few of the superstructure trimmings. Rather than use the white metal stanchions for the handrails I simply used 1.5 mm brass rod and drilled sockets into 3mm brass tube and soldered them. I also decided that the foot rails for the deck were a little tricky to cut out and still get a neat finish and so I used 3mm square section styrene rod and this gave a much nicer product. You can also just see the UHF loop and it looks spot on. I also put a small brass hook half way up the mast as I noticed some rigging attaches here. My plan is to use that elastick cotton stuff and use small brass fishing swivels so that the rigging can be easily removed at need.
Photo attached.
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Oh and as for the radio gear.... I was actually going to build a box into the hull so that only the motors and servo would be able to get wet if water did get in....I will see what happens....I may just make it as near as dang impossible for the water to get in ....that's for another time though....next will have to be the hull fixing.
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considering this is your first time, "at a Deans kit", she is looking rather good ^^^
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Hi Ash, As the guys on here have said the latest esc's make it so much easier these days to control the motors as opposed to the mechanical speed controllers of the past, and I always use the battery eliminator circuit and a couple of large capacity nimh batteries, in my solebay I have two 4500Mah nimh batteries to run two 300 motors via two esc's with one supplying the receiver, rudder servo and two servos for the main turrets, and get well over an hours running.
I do however allways do a durability test in the bath on a newly finished boat before committing an expensive model to the lake, just pop it in the bath tether the boat to the taps and run at about third throttle to give the motors some work, this will give a fair estimate of running time
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As Colin says she is looking very nice.
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Well... its been a bit busy lately and so I havent had chance to get on with much but I have now fitted the coamings for the superstructure to the deck and they are nice and tight with no movement once the superstructure is in place. I have also constructed the rudder hatch. I have put the spray strips on to the chine of the hull and given it all a nice coat of primer.
Next will be the deck furniture and then a paint job....I will leave the cabin til the very last as I want to get some detailing on this still and I still have to work out how to glaze the windows!
Anyway...here are some pics and I'll update you soon!
ash
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coming along nicely ... Ash
would that be a question on glazing..?? normally there is clear plastic in the Kit to complete this task..!!
or would Ash be thinking about putting window frames in first then glazing..??
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Lol.... yes Colin... I think it is a question!
Here are my thoughts...firstly there is glazing plastic but if I do that then you can see in to the gubbins in the boat... also it wont fit exactly on the inside of the apertures I have cut as the cabin sides are slightly concave at the edge on the inside due to the vacforming process. I was thinking of maybe just blanking them with a piece of styrene sheet inside and then simply painting the holes black afterwards.
But you intrigue me Colin... tell me more about this framing! I am open to suggestions as to what the best solution here would be.
Ash
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lets see if i can give you some answers...
there are a few ideas that could be used in this scale.
1. Make the holes (windows) in the superstructure slightly larger, put on the inside of the superstructure a second skin out of 0.5 or 1mm plastic with the windows slightly smaller than the ones in the main superstructure... this would give you a Small lip inwards, the glazing can then be bent and fixed in place.
2. make the holes (windows) in the superstructure slightly larger (starts the same), then lay your glazing against this hole, and mark the size of the hole onto the glazing, put the glazing onto a protected flat surface, and with "micro strips", put an edge around the markings, and then fix the glazing in place.
3. measure the thickness of the superstructure, probably somewere about 0.8mm, you could take some 1mm microstrips and line the inside of the windows, inside of the superstructure the microstrip would be level with the superstructure, on the outer side there would be a 0.2mm frame, like i did on my "liz terkol" and can be seen here (http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=51.msg90#msg90)
looking at a typical BPB ASRL (http://www.yalumba.co.uk/Framesets/British%20Power%20Boat%20Co%20-%20page%206,%20ASRLs.html)(British Power Boat / Air Sea Rescue Launch) most of these boats are similar.
Photo of ASRL 122 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/TE6vSIylLMI/AAAAAAAARUU/u2ur1vil9K4/s1600/RAF+Rescue+launch.jpg)
Photo of ASRL 173 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/THjvX-e0UPI/AAAAAAAARtU/cwmQ4nmAxdA/s1600/ASR+Launch.jpg)
these photo show oval windows on the side of the superstructure, that looks as if there is a lip outwards around the windows, which would mean i would tend to go for version 3.
about seeing the so called gubbins in the boat, you could put a false floor in the supperstrcture after glazing, that way no one can see the gubbins.... ^^^ ^^^
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Ash, as usual Colin is giving a lot of useful information. I would add that even though you are reluctant to display the innards of you model through the windows, better that than blanking the window appertures off as that will be very detrimental to the impression your model makes. :-\ Its well worth the extra work.
Robin
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Hmmm.... I am liking the idea of the framing and it wouldnt be too hard to do. The one problem I have hit is what the hell to stick the microstrip to the clear plastic as the usual liquid poly doesnt cut it" Should I use superglue?...the problem with that is fogging though isnt it?
Help please!
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there is non fogy super glue out there on the market, and there is lots of other glues that can stick clear plastic to normal superstructure plastic...
have a look at this post http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=468.0 (http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=468.0)
http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/ (http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/)
http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/pages/gluechart.htm (http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/pages/gluechart.htm)
TACKY GLUE
..Very sticky glue that drys clear, flexible, and is non staining. Use for bonding fabric, plastic windows, bonding ceramic and flexible tiles.
ROKET ODOURLESS
..Low odour, non blooming. Safe for plastics and foam, Sets in 1 to 5 seconds.
i guess its a case of what your pocket money will allow..!!
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Ah mate.... you are a legend! Pocket money is no issue so I think I'll get both and see which one I like best...watch this space!
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your welcome .. :) :)
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Oh boy.... I have been so busy at work lately that I simply haven't had the time to do any more on the boat....that and the wife needed my workstation (which is actually the dining room table!...doh!) I have also ordered a more detailed / accurate anchor chain winch but have yet to receive it and so cannot do anymore on the deck yet.
But I have a week off next week and I have fabricated some new lockers as the resin casts were a bit bubbly and making a new pair from styrene sheet would be quicker and neater so here they are: